-- INTRO --
Chris Moriarty
Hello and welcome to Workplace Geeks, your regular trip on the turbulent seas of workplace wisdom that navigates the uncharted currents of innovation and discovery to bring you the treasures hidden beneath the surface. I'm Chris Moriarty, and well, it's just me today. Um, As you remember from last time we concluded series two with Esme putting the questions to Ian and I about a paper we co authored with James Pinder about a new workplace experience framework that we'd put together.
You might also remember that we didn't have a reflection section for that and hinted that there would be a standalone bonus episode where James joined Ian and I to reflect on series two as a whole. Well, this is that episode. Before we dive into that just a quick run through the mailbag We spotted a lovely comment from Jenny Barrett who is the well-being manager at the RSPB, that's a Royal Society for the Protection of Birds for those outside of the UK, who was debating whether or not to walk to work in the rain?
So she's decided to brave it and along the way she listened to our episode with Josh artist the first of our doubleheader on Neurodiversity. So Jenny, we hope you enjoyed it And part two with Joe Yarker was just as good. And the other item on the agenda is a quick shout out to Ashley Harwood. We spoke to you briefly at the recent Workplace Trends event, and you wanted to catch up with Ian, who was off busy recording interviews for our upcoming Workplace Trends special.
Well. We wanted to extend an invite to you for the Workplace Geeks festive bash, which is taking place on the 5th of December in central London. So do drop us an email on hello at workplacegeeks. org and we'll get the details to you. And Ashley isn't the only one that could be there. If you want to get your hands on one of an exclusive set of tickets for our festive celebration, then you need to sign up to the newsletter, the form for which you can find at workplacegeeks.org
Sign up and look out for an email with information on how to register and you can find yourself networking with a whole host of past guests from the show who have already confirmed that they'll be there. Anyway, enough admin, let's pass over to, well, us talking about series two with Dr. James Pinder.
-- INTERVIEW --
Chris Moriarty
So we are fast approaching the end of the series. We've got time for one more reflection section, and it wouldn't be right if we didn't allow the original, the OG reflection section guest, the ponderer returns, James Pinder, back in the room. Dr. Jimmy P. Welcome back.
James Pinder
Hi, Chris. Nice to, nice to speak to you.
Chris Moriarty
It's always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Have, have you learned any new skills? I don't get you on to, to find out what you think about our podcast. Have you learned any new skills recently or you, uh, trade craft any, any new trade craft?
James Pinder
No, but there'll be some, some happening in the autumn.
Chris Moriarty
I'm sure. Is that kind of high season for trade craft?
Is it like you have the summer off and then it's like, right guys, it's awesome time. It's trade craft. Time to fettle.
Ian Ellison
Time to fettle with raw material.
James Pinder
Everyone needs a break, Chris
Chris Moriarty
Exactly. You've got to give your best when doing a dry stone wall, haven't you? Can't be burnt out. Ah, well, look, it's good to have you back.
So look, the format for this is slightly different. We're not going to reflect on Ian and I chuntering along just a minute ago with Esme. We're actually going to do a bit of a reflection of the season, or if you were in the UK. This series, this is episode 14. We're going to look back at the previous 13.
We're going to pull out some highlights, some things we really enjoyed. We'd love to hear from people listening to this afterwards, what you really enjoyed and what we can bring to the next series. Dare we think about it. But I'm going to give you a bit of a structure lads because this could go everywhere.
We've had so much content. So I want you to think about two of the interviews that really kind of struck a chord with you that really kind of ignited a kind of interesting idea. So thank you. We'll go round, do your first one, we'll come back round for you for your second. Ian, give us your first highlight.
Ian Ellison
Okay, so I'm gonna go with, probably unsurprisingly for the pair of you, I'm gonna go to Dr. Dan and his study, which was underpinned by Henri Lefebvre. Partly because, Chris, you get to say Henri Lefebvre again. Go on, have a go.
Chris Moriarty
Henri, Henri. It's the, it's the, it's the middle part of that lafe.
Ian Ellison
You're making more of it.
Chris Moriarty
I know, but I feel like if I say it too plainly, then it sounds like I'm not doing them justice. Right. Unreal laev rather than, than turning this. Apologies. Apologies. What he's currently doing. Yeah. Well, I, I was gonna apologize to the French listenership where Fr. France is the fourth ranking country in our listenership is he is the fourth ranking country.
So what's French for sorry.
Ian Ellison
So I have had this long standing belief, from my own studies really, that there is so much historically that we know about space and place, and workplace by inference, that we just don't tap into on a day to day basis. Because it's too hard, because nobody's taken the time to go back and learn. We get obsessed, repeatedly on this show, about D.E.G.W. and Frank Duffy for exactly that reason. The work's already been done. Some of it is only coming to fruition now, as technology makes it possible. And Henri Lefebvre, all the way through the 20th century, challenging us to think more progressively about social space, political space. And then to bring that to a study, which is directly relevant to our current workplaces, for me, that's an absolute standout.
People have tried it. Dan really succeeded. So chuffed to bits about that.
Chris Moriarty
I always wonder as well, whether sometimes this is the classic, the Workplace Geek subplot, whenever we're doing these things is this kind of tension between academia and practice. What I kind of imagine is. Imagine like being a workplace leader going, Hey, boss, can I have a bit of time out the operation side of things, I need to go and look at this guy who was a French philosopher slash Marxist slash, you know, they'd be like, what on earth are you doing?
Like, just get on with the day job. James, as Ian was talking, that's one of your things, right? You know, If we're about to look at a topic, then what's already been done? Why do you think it's, it happens so infrequently unless you are sat in front of a lecturer or, or, or a supervisor.
Ian Ellison
I'll tell you why Really bluntly 'cause it takes more work. 'cause it takes more bloody graft, right? You sit there going, I know what it is. Dead easy to crack on and I'll find a piece of evidence to support my belief. It's far harder to stop and do the proper work, which is to understand the full picture. To understand the work that's gone before and say, how can I learn from this?
You, to stand on the shoulders takes effort, right?
Chris Moriarty
So just whilst Ian pops his soapbox away, James, what's your reflection on why it doesn't happen as much as it should?
James Pinder
Yeah, I guess linked to what Ian says, I guess people are busy, path of least resistance, isn't it? And often, sometimes people, I guess there's a bit of a circle, isn't it, of people might presume there isn't anything and they might therefore not know where to start looking.
And bear in mind a lot of the academic literature, less so now, but a lot of the academic research that people want to access isn't always publicly available either. It's increasing these, but still it can be hard to find stuff, particularly if it was published. years ago. Some of it might not be easily accessible, not in a, I can't get through a pay wall.
It's maybe it's hard to understand or get your head round or...
Chris Moriarty
Like French philosophy. I mean, French philosophers aren't renowned for, for summing things up succinctly, are they? Like, let's face it.
Ian Ellison
What was the word that Dan used?
Chris Moriarty
Oh, loquacious. Yeah, loquacious. Was it loquacious?
Ian Ellison
It was loquacious,
James Pinder
Maybe you need to write the super abridged version
Ian Ellison
A Trixie Tinker that has some very powerful ideas is how I would phrase it.
Chris Moriarty
This goes back to something we talked about ages ago which was that tweet my thesis kind of trend, wasn't it? I mean, how would, how would Luftwaffe, how would he tweet his thesis?
Ian Ellison
He did it, right? He did it in one, two, three, four, five, six words, social space and socialism brackets is a social product and socialism brackets. And everything that he argues for is contained. In those six words, social space is a social product, and whether you think that's pretentious as anything, or you're sat there going, what on earth is that all about?
That underpins our framework for what workplace is. It's not just physical space. It underpins why we invite such a diverse breadth of people. Guests on the show, it underpins the way James and I have consulted and help organizations understand the, the way that workplace causes problems and challenges in organizations.
It's there. It's just there. It's just we don't refer to it because we don't know it's there, which is why my soapbox is out and I'll put it away now.
Chris Moriarty
You know, another reason why that was an excellent episode is because it by far, by far had the best title. Of all of all our podcast episodes this series by far.
And if you don't know what it is, ladies and gentlemen, go and have a look. And when you see it, send the congratulations my way, because that was my contribution to that. So, um, James. Let's get to your first highlight. Who is the person that you're taking away with you into the winter months, pondering their thoughts?
James Pinder
Um, I thought the Ben episode around sociometric badgers stood out.
Chris Moriarty
The elusive Ben Weber?
James Pinder
Yeah, because it's one that Ian and I have fronted over the years in our teaching. And what I find, well, obviously there's... It's interesting from lots of different perspectives, um, including the ethical perspective. I just think it's interesting that a research that published 13 years ago and just interesting how the world has changed since then in terms of technology and data.
So I just thought, yeah, doing the interview sort of a few years after, after the research was published, when technology was in a particular place then and data and workplace data in particular, and how things have changed since then.
Ian Ellison
They were sort of 10 years ahead of Microsoft with Viva and Microsoft Analytics, really, in terms of understanding the value of metadata alongside their sociometric badges.
That thing that you said there about teaching, it still rears its head because I use I don't think I used that paper, but I use a paper written by Weber when he was still at MIT with his colleagues and Sandy Pentland. And I encourage current students to think about it, current workplace students. And what's really interesting is they respond really badly to that technology.
They really do not feel comfortable with it. They don't feel comfortable with the ethics. They don't feel comfortable with permissions. And it's almost like the barriers come up because that is such a challenging thing to get your head around.
James Pinder
But also since then, if you think about people wear on the wrists, mobile phones aside, but people are quite happy to connect their watches to other third party.
Chris Moriarty
Well, that's a value exchange thing or whatever.
James Pinder
Yeah, well, exactly. Precisely.
Ian Ellison
Yeah. And so the default starting point for the Humanized technology is that people really do judge it negatively compared to, um, like my choice to log everything and send it across to Strava because I'm interested in health statistics.
They see it because organizations and choice are involved. They start from a different place. They shouldn't, but they do.
Chris Moriarty
That got me thinking about as well. I mean, it was a, it was great that we found Ben and, uh, after he tried to avoid us for so long that he finally relented and joined us on, on the pod.
Chris Moriarty
And what I always find interesting when we do a paper that's old, you know, relatively old is. Like we had Jack Niles in the first series, right, is how these ideas have been kicking around but because the focus wasn't on them, or because the context was slightly different, because the environment around it was slightly different, they didn't seem that important, they just seemed like, oh, that's interesting, if I get time I might read it, or, you know, a bit of a kind of hobby piece almost, and then suddenly the world shifts, and then it's like, Oh man, that's really important.
And suddenly Ben finds himself talking about something from a decade ago, because now everybody's interested and everybody's trying to wrestle with it. And that goes back to your point, Ian, doesn't it? Like, you know, do the work cause actually someone has already probably cracked it. I mean, my, my first highlight, the one that really blew my tiny mind, it's fair to say is when we talked to, uh, Kirsten Sailer, I just, the more she said the more my brain hurt, not because I didn't understand it, although I suspect there was bits that I probably didn't understand, but just how kind of important it felt and how kind of ignorant I was, but I would argue a lot of people are, to stuff. Like space syntax, just the fact that there are things that we have around us that we probably couldn't measure or hadn't had a method to measure or didn't have the technology to measure whatever it might be that was sitting there the whole time and explain stuff and that stuff shed new light on a thing which we've been wrestling with for ages, open plan, people have a beef with it.
Ian Ellison
We get really emotive about it and pretend that we know what everybody else thinks about it. And yet space syntax sheds a different way to see why some seats are better than other seats in a big open plan space.
Chris Moriarty
It was the predictability that the kind of almost forecasting element of it. Once they crack the kind of formula, they could almost.
Predict what spaces we're going to do in terms of performance outcomes of the organisation. And I think that's, you know, we've talked about, you know, golden eggs for a long time in this sector and stuff. And it just feels to me that something like that needs more attention. More people need to know about it.
And Kirsten, I know you listen. I've literally been telling anyone that will listen to me about space syntax.
Ian Ellison
Kirsten has been doing space syntax research for as long as I've known her, right? And her forebears, you know, we talk about Frank Duffy, she talks about Hillier and Hansen as the two OGs of that world.
So there's tons to pull out when you really start going and exploring.
James Pinder
I was involved in a study a few years ago where we used it. So, yeah, it was, yeah, it was interesting to find out more about it.
Chris Moriarty
So Ian, what's your, uh, what's your second highlight that you wanted to talk about?
Ian Ellison
Okay, so my second highlight is definitely the Gabriella Brown episode.
And the reason is because actually it kind of takes me back, kind of, kind of like a warm, fuzzy, but slightly troubled way to the consultancy work that James and I did before our most recent venture with Audium. Because to get a really deep understanding of an organisational dynamic, whether it's a problem in one department or whether it's a problem across an organization, what you really understand with Gabriela's work is the need to really listen, to get people talking, to go deep and understand the context.
What comes with that is an awareness that there are only particular methodologies, whether they're research or consultancy methodologies, that get that done for you. It's not about surface level tick box research. It's about deeply understanding what makes an organisation tick. And I remember vividly, Chris, you were absolutely sort of with Gabriela in the conversation because the chapters were so emotive.
So the power of how she communicates the importance of that sort of work, I just thought was phenomenal.
Chris Moriarty
That episode does stand out on its own because of how unique it was compared to everything else we've looked at. Right. Which is an important. topic, some important ideas based on solid science, you know, there's nothing fluffy about it, but the execution of it was almost standalone and everything, anything we've looked at really, which was, let me tell you a series of stories that you can relate to, to understand some of these complex issues more.
And as someone who is obsessed with storytelling and in all its forms and all its kind of different, Mediums that was just, it was a really nice break from looking at academic work to looking at stuff. He goes, well, how do we, how do we communicate complex ideas in a way that make it more accessible? So, yeah, it was great talking to Gabriella.
James, you, you've written guidance notes on, you know, selling workplace visions and things like that. You know, how do we better connect the dots between very complicated research stuff, you know, like, you know, data, whatever it might be, it can get a bit kind of. It can bog you down, but then somehow flipping it, you know, when you've got students or you've had students in the past and you're sort of saying, right, you know, you need to tell this story now, don't just brain dump, tell the story.
I mean, that's, that's really what this Gabriela episode was about was storytelling. How important is it in the work that people will be doing or studying, whether it's practice or, you know.
James Pinder
Ian and I would argue that traditionally, if you think about research training, research. Data training may be slightly different now in terms of some data science courses, but most of it is about collecting it and writing it up so you can produce something like a dissertation.
It's not often around how you,
Ian Ellison
..what you then do with that and how you mobilize it in the boardroom to convince people that they need to do something different.
James Pinder
And then people get disappointed when they collect some data and write it up and produce a report and it doesn't have any impact because it's, we know it's, it's more than that.
Ian and I were chatting to somebody earlier this week about that, that very thing. You know, you can collect all the data in the world, but unless they know the dynamics of this particular audience and what
Ian Ellison
pushes their buttons, what's going to make them respond in the right way.
James Pinder
Yeah, then that data is not going to have the impact that that you hope it's going to have, in a lot of, in a lot of instances.
Ian Ellison
So it's two skills. I mean, this is your dark art, Chris, right? This is how you can, you know, use data. And we are a fan of Nancy Duarte and her writing on this stuff. It's like how you use data to tell powerful stories for organisational action. Not fictional stories, but stories that galvanise action. I think the other thing, James, which I sort of alluded to when I was talking about why I like the Gabriella one so much.
I always remember vividly in our consultancy work, you would very often be in listening mode, in deciphering mode, in what's the subplot mode. I would be in facilitation, elicitation mode. And it's only when you spend the time really trying to understand these dynamics, you can see the system at work.
These things are interconnected systems with all sorts of triggers. and motivations and stuff. And you've got to understand it's really simple. It's really straightforward and it takes a lot of work to sort out and that's Gabriela's specialism. So hats off.
James Pinder
Yeah. The other one that stood out to me was Josh's, um, which I remember listening to, I think, as I was walking into Sheffield to meet you two one day.
Less about the research element in that particular interview, but I just thought the topic was interesting and, and some of the, you know, different ways of looking at the topic. So
Ian Ellison
Josh Artus, on neurodiversity.
Chris Moriarty
Yeah, the fact we did a double header on that, which in of itself was two different ways of looking at a topic.
It's a hot topic, right? But I kind of feel like, I sometimes wonder when topics become so in focus that it draws a lot of attention from That's people with a surface level knowledge, but there kind of seems these days to be a desperation to have opinions on stuff. And sometimes it's best just to listen to people that really know their stuff.
I guarantee there's some organisations saying we need to have a view on this. We need to have a position on this. And there is a danger that you do make it look like it's virtue signaling. Uh, and that'll be because you've not really treated the topic with respect and brought expertise into it. And what was nice about talking to Josh was The combination of a very personal, passionate, he's got skin in the game because, you know, someone very close to him has to deal with this, has to, has to navigate the world that's, that's built for neurotypical people.
But he combines it with deep, deep knowledge on the topic as well. And bringing those two things together, I think is really what made that episode shine. Again, not, not our typical format, but like just dead interesting.
Ian Ellison
It was a penny drop moment that you can frame neurodiversity as a movement, right?
It's not the same as a medical diagnosis, which is slightly different to what Joe was talking about on its own. Partner podcast, right? Of this doubleheader, as you put it, Chris. But you can be part of the movement, you can identify to be part of the movement, if it is something that you choose to do and want to do.
And that makes it political. And this was what was so interesting about a BCO report, which was as much about the people and the politics as it was about how you can think about space in relation to the topic. And Josh is a great speaker and I can't wait to see him next week at Workplace Trends. But it's just brilliant to hear somebody talk so passionately about that.
Chris Moriarty
James, I mean, you said, you sort of pointed. there. You said it was interesting, less about the research, just that, you know, interesting topic. But how do you see topics like that kind of embedding themselves into practice, embedding themselves into research? In the next episode, we heard about the lack of evidence that any of these interventions work.
So, you know, there's a place for Josh's passion and vision. But then how do we turn that into real, kind of, you know, practical, solid science?
James Pinder
It takes time, doesn't it, for, you know, because part of it might be, might be people busy doing their PhDs now on issues around this topic or particular questions or problems.
Yeah, so you don't always see the results of
Ian Ellison
You talk about like a time delay in academia, aren't you? Yeah, yeah,
James Pinder
yeah. And then
Chris Moriarty
what's a PhD typically take? If someone listened to Josh's episode and goes, Oh, that's what I want to do my PhD in, which I suspect that's probably happened dozens of times. We've probably changed people's lives by influencing them with the topics for their PhDs. But if that did happen, I hope, fingers crossed, what, like, what is the time delay? You know, from someone going, that's, that's the topic for me, to turning it into something that's then published and they're going to talk about. What's, what's typical?
James Pinder
People would aim to do a PhD in three years
Ian Ellison
Oh, is it three? Oh, I took 10 and then still didn't do it. There you go.
James Pinder
Well, yeah, if you It did say typical. Full time. If you're working at full time.
Ian Ellison
Oh, I see.
James Pinder
And you concentrate on it and focus on it.
Ian Ellison
Good point. Don't move house. Don't change job. Don't have children
Chris Moriarty
Yeah, that's a podcast. Don't launch a new startup, all those sorts of things.
James Pinder
So even then there's a delay, isn't there, from, you know, deciding to do it and getting on.
Ian Ellison
So probably five years to anything being published really, isn't it?
James Pinder
Well, and even then, everything sees the light of day, does it? So, so yeah, it's, it's not an easy, and then you may get research that's obviously, um, carried out in other areas, you know, it could be professional bodies or, or charities funding research that, that might have a shorter turnaround or, or companies doing research.
Um, but again, that just doesn't happen overnight, does it, I guess.
Ian Ellison
So Christopher, this is six of six. What was your second one then?
Chris Moriarty
Have I just been made redundant?
Ian Ellison
No, I'm just trying to tee you up so you don't have to do your own job. I just thought it'd help.
Chris Moriarty
I think the second one for me in the same theme as Kirsten was when we talked to Rachel and Sophie last time out.
Just, it was kind of almost like a bookend because Kirsten was so close to the start of the series and then we had Rachel and Sophie at the tail end and the same vibe, right? It's something different in terms of the organisation network analysis. Now, that's like, maybe that's slightly different in that I guess it's, it's something again that's been kicking around for a while.
It's been measurable for a while, right? You know, and I guess that you could argue space syntax was the same, right? It was more of a, an awareness thing. But again, just how often we talk about space and really the challenges people and how people work and how people interact and how people communicate and all the rest of it.
And yeah. There are so many organisations that are advising people on space that are blind to, and it, you know, that's not a crit, well, maybe it is a criticism, but it's not, you know, it's kind of human nature. You know, you know what, you know, and you stick to that. And sometimes, you know, my marketing training, there's a kind of a thing that marketers will do when they want to be provocative and challenging is to sort of say to themselves, what business are we actually in?
Because on the, on the face of it, it looks like we sell this. But what are we actually selling? What, you know, what is the actual value? Um, and I wonder whether that's kind of the space industry's issues. It looks like we're selling refurb, it looks like we're selling redesign of space. But actually we are changing how people work.
And this is just one of the levers going back to Ben Weber. He used to talk about management levers, right? Well, I kind of feel like in the space world, we've been pulling one really hard. And meanwhile, there's a, there's an enormous one round the corner that we've not even been looking at. And, and for Cushman and Wakefield to come out and be talking about this for, uh, Sophie and Rachel to become out and essentially embrace a very, I guess, HR, more HR kind of academic, um, idea and drag it into our world, into our context was exciting. It's another exciting thing. Imagine, you know, imagine being able to measure things that ONA, measure things like space syntax. And then I'll tell you what gets really excited.
Imagine you combine the two, like what happens in Kirsten, Sophie, uh, Rachel, if you're listening, let's do a Workplace Geeks hookup. Um, but that's, that's the thing for me. Like imagine, imagine these things became so much more accessible. The ideas became so much more accessible. The way of measuring them becomes more accessible.
That's, it might solve so many problems that just make working lives better.
Ian Ellison
Yeah, well, it's nice that you're joining dots there because, you know, the dots do join between sort of metadata and other ways of understanding qualitatively and quantitatively understanding organisations from Sophie and Rachel to Ben to Kirsten and to more besides existing guests and I'm sure future guests.
There are lovely, lovely interconnections. Could I just say a couple of other general things that I've enjoyed about this season? The other two things that generally I've enjoyed about this season. Yeah. Or series, depending upon what side of the pond you're from, is the whole sort of double header around a topic.
I think we should do more of that because I'd love to get different lenses, right? So would love some suggestions from listeners about what topics we should go deep on and get a range of perspectives. And the other thing I really enjoyed was going out on the road, that collaboration with Workplace Trends.
I know that. Spoiler alert, we've got more of those in the pipeline, Chris, but actually getting out and sort of doing more of a magazine format episode or two, where we've got shorter interviews, and then start splicing in some of the stuff. You did some brilliant production work with that. It was ace. And I love that.
And that's a great compliment to the long format interviews.
Chris Moriarty
Geeks on tour. I mean, I am still, I'm still waiting for the, uh, invite to some far flung country. You know, if you're sitting there thinking, I'm sat here in Sao Paulo thinking, how do I make my workplace events stand out from the crowd? I know what I need.
Chris Moriarty
I need the Geeks. Uh, we will be there, uh, literally in swimwear, I should imagine as well, but we will, we will be there.
Ian Ellison
And we don't insist on business class, do we, Chris? We'll go to Sao Paulo. Economy. No problem. Yeah.
Chris Moriarty
Mate, I'll go in the cargo. Like, never mind economy. I'd go cargo. Um, so look, it's been a lovely, wonderful series.
I never thought we'd end up making two episodes. Nevermind 28. Um, Who would I rather spend this little reflection section with? Of course, it's got to be James. Anyone else, you know, thank you to Esme. Thank you to Simon. Thank you to Dr. Dan for coming back. But they all know, they pale into insignificance.
They all know that they have... Not a jot on our original ponderer, Dr. James Pinder. So thank you very much for coming back and blessing us with your presence.
James Pinder
It's been a pleasure, Chris.
Ian Ellison
He actually said it! He said he liked it!
-- OUTRO --
Chris Moriarty
So that really is it for Series 2. Thank you so much to all of our guests for joining us and making this series so interesting and diverse in topic. Thank you to Esme, Simon and Dan who came back to help us reflect on our interviews and thank you for listening. Thank you for posting your comments on social media and emailing us with your reflections, it makes a huge difference to know that you're all enjoying this. Remember to rate, review, and share the podcast to help grow the community and do post your thoughts and views on each episode. You can do that on LinkedIn by searching for Workplace Geeks or using the hashtag that's hashtag Workplace Geeks.
And do feel free to drop us a line at [email protected]. Remember to sign up to the newsletter workplacegeeks.org to make sure you stay up to date with the latest episodes. Blogs and exclusive discounts we have for the geek community. And more importantly, right now to find out more about the festive bash.
Speak to you soon.
